GM Tips, Tricks, & General Advice

[cailano]

Before I post my actual dragon encounter, I'd like to solicit some feedback from the group. I'm going to base the dragon encounter on a four player group with 10th level characters. We'll stick with the classic fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric combo.

What I'd like to get from you is your ideas on how the spell casters can best prepare. Let's say they know they will face a red dragon that day, but also the dragon's lair, which will likely incorporate some stone giant minions.

What's your spell list? How do you prepare for a creature like Kilthrakis?

You don't know what his lair will look like, but you do know he has that kidnapped elven singer described above somewhere in there with him.

What do you do?

I love saying that. All I mean though is what spells do you prepare?

[archmagi1]

Wizard with 20 INT:
4/6/5/4/4/3
0- Ray of Frost, Detect Magic, Light, Daze
1- Vanish x3, Ray of Sickening, Ray of Enfeeblement, Mage Armor
2- Spectral Hand, Mirror Image, Acid Arrow, Invisibility, Hideous Laughter
3- Ice Spears, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Heightened Blindness/Deafness, Extended Mirror Image
4- Stone Shape, Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility, Enervation
5- Wall of Force, Extended Black Tentacles, Suffocation

Cleric with 20WIS:
4/6/5/4/4/3
0- Guidance, Create Water, Detect Magic, Stabilize
1- CLW Fodder x6
2- Silence, Communal Protection from Evil, Resist Energy, Align Weapon x2
3- Invisibility Purge, Communal Resist Energy, Blindness/Deafness, Archon's Aura
4- Ward Shield, Communal Protection from Energy, Fleshworm Infestation, Holy Smite
5- Boneshatter, Breath of Life, Spell Resistance

[cailano]

Good list, Archmagi. You've got some obscure spells on that list that I've never ever heard of, but hey if your GM allows them I'm sure they are great.

[archmagi1]

All of them are straight from d20pfsrd. Some are a bit out there, but most of them are core (the wiz only has 2 non-core spells). Expanded source material really has added a robustness to the 9-level divine list that is sorely absent in the core rules. Yeah, I could do some metamagic versions of the basics, but without stuff like Breath of Life or the Communal versions of lesser spells, it turns your cleric into a reactive healer instead of a proactive buffer/debuffer.

[cailano]

I'm such a minimalist when it comes to rules. If I allow one character from the APG into a game I feel like I'm pushing the envelope. In my Jade Regent game I'm actually cracking open Ultimate Combat. Insanity, I tell you.

[cailano]

“Never laugh at live dragons.”
~ J.R.R Tolkien

The Encounter

When running a complex creature such as a dragon or spell caster, it is important to have a basic strategy. As was brought up earlier in this talk on dragons, it is possible for a well prepared party to bring a dragon low with very little effort, given an ideal environment.

The thing is, players don't want this. They want a dragon encounter to be challenging and memorable, and its our job - nay, our duty to give them to them. This is a dragon we're talking about, after all.

First off, we deny them the ideal encounter. The PCs will likely suspect when they are approaching the dragon's lair, and will want time to rest and memorize specialized dragon fighting spells. Do not give this to them. If they try to clear the dungeon and leave in order to return later, have the dragon attack them during their retreat. They are intelligent creatures, and aren't going to wait around to be ambushed.

That is a key point to remember : Dragons are intelligent creatures, and should be played as such. They can rig alarms for themselves in their lair, and if they have sufficient servants, traps as well. They have access to magic items. They can lock doors and assign guards.

Then there is the combat itself. If the dragon has a few rounds to prepare, he or she will likely try to position itself somewhere advantageous. What kind of lair would a dragon choose? Simply one big enough for it's treasure? Or one that could be made defensible? I don't know about you but if my house doubled as a bank vault, I'd sure as heck have a plan to protect all that loot.

Once the fight has begun, the dragon will do the same things the PCs will do - try to end it as quickly and brutally as possible. It will try to identify the most dangerous targets, and that usually means spellcasters.

Know what your dragon will do for the first three rounds, with some possible decision points like "the dragon will attack the party wizard, unless someone approaches the magic shield in the west corner, in which case the dragon will attack that PC." Stuff like that.

So here's Kilthrakis

The lair itself is a massive cavern, carved by Thassilonian Runelords in ancient times. It is big enough for three dragons. There are several statures of demonic creatures in here each towering some twenty feet high.

The dragons hoard is spread over the floor in one corner like a bed. Suspended from the ceiling is a gilded cage that holds the elven druid's daughter. She wears a fine - but revealing - gown and has a small harp. The cage is set up very comfortably for her, with cushions and what not. The cage is enchanted in a way that enhances the volume and range of the woman's voice.

The lair is only accessible through a secret exit known only to Kilthrakis, and by a set of double doors secured with an intricate lock. (DC 30.) These doors are also guarded by a pair of armored stone giants, who the PCs will have to battle to get at Kilthrakis.

Once inside, there is a magical trap similar to a Glyph of Warding on the floor near the doors.

The room is lit only by braziers hung from the hands of the statues.

When Kilthrakis hears the battle with the stone giants, or anyone trying to open the doors to his lair, he will cast invisibility on himself and go cling to one of the statues.

Once the PCs trip or deactivate the glyph of warding, Kilthrakis will cast dispel magic on the group, hoping to remove their resistance to fire. This will cancel his invisibility.

On round two, Kilthrakis will use his breath weapon, looking to target as many PCs as possible.

By round three, any spell casters should have revealed themselves. Kilthrakis will do two things this round. One, he will attempt to pounce on whatever one seems the most dangerous, and will avail himself of any attacks of opportunity he can. Two, he will use his pyrotechnics to extinguish the braziers that light the room. This may cause the PCs to waste precious actions creating a light source for themselves.

The twist to this encounter is that the elven princess isn't a prisoner at all, but is in fact in love with Kilthrakis, who has promised to get her with a dragonblooded child. The elf is an 8th level sorceress, and she'll sneak out of her cage (it isn't locked) on round three. She'll then attempt to bring her powers to bear on anyone that seems a threat to her master.

And that's pretty much it! Is it an unbeatable strategy for the dragon? I hope not, because ultimately the PCs are kind of supposed to win. But Kilthrakis and his thrall certainly aren't making anything easy on them, and I think the elf / dragon relationship allows for some interesting role playing opportunities.

In my next post I'll go over some ways the truly sadistic could have made this encounter even more challenging, by changing Kilthrakis from the standard red dragon into something even more dangerous.

[archmagi1]

in my next post i'll go over some ways the truly sadistic could have made this encounter even more challenging, by changing kilthrakis from the standard red dragon into something a even more dangerous.

giant advanced half fiend pyroclastic dragon!?!?!?!

edit: AWWW, my all caps got demoted :(

[cailano]

giant advanced half fiend pyroclastic dragon!?!?!?!

edit: AWWW, my all caps got demoted :(

I like the way you think.

[cailano]

Thoughts on dragons and stoneshape.

Intrigued by the earlier debate regarding stoneshape, I went and looked up the spell in the PRD.

You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose. While it's possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn't possible. There is a 30% chance that any shape including moving parts simply doesn't work.

I'm trying to see the exploits here. I see a couple of scenarios:

1) The mage somehow climbs up over the dragons head (the spell has touch range) or uses fly to get up there and stoneshapes a big rock onto the dragon's head.

2) The mage sneaks up to the dragon's feet and stoneshapes a quick cage around it... at least 20 cubic feet worth of cage.

Okay fine. I guess I'm still not seeing the problem.

Player: "My wizard sneaks up on the dragon."

GM: [roll0] "Okay... that's a DC 43. What's your stealth?

Player: "Um... I cast invisibility and wear my boots of elven sneaking."

GM: Invisibility gives you a +20 while moving... what was your stealth again?

Player: "Boots of sneaking give me another +10... and hey I just rolled really good. I beat the DC 43."

GM: "Fine. You have approached the dragon, who towers above you only inches away. Now what?"

Player: "I'm going to use my ring of flying and go up to the ceiling."

GM: "you're moving right by the dragon. roll stealth again."

Player: "%&*!"

GM: "Nevermind, I just want to see what you're going to do. The dragon doesn't notice you."

Player: "Sweet! I cast stoneshape on the ceiling and drop twenty cubic feet of rock on that sucker's head! I even shape it like a big spike!"


***

Now at this point I have to wonder if the player knows what twenty cubic feet of rock looks like.

I'll give you a hint... you've probably seen 100 cubic feet of space before.



That's the back of a Mazda CX-9. One hundred cubic feet of space. The wizards stone weapon of death would fit in there five times over.

How much damage would that do? 10D6 with a Fort save of DC 13 for half. Where do I get this?

Well, stoneshape is a third level spell, similar to fireball. A fireball from a 10th level wizard would be 10D6 damage. I used fort instead of reflex because its a physical object with mass.

I actually feel like this is a generous ruling. I could have made it 10d4 and still felt fair. I could have required a hit roll, but I didn't.

The dragon easily makes its save and takes 15 points of damage. the wizard is now fully visible and the dragon is more angry than injured. The wizard is well within breath weapon range, and probably melee range for a big dragon. Even flying away would trigger an AOO. Not looking good for the wizard. I give him points for style, but not foresight.

Let's look at option two

***

After sneaking up on the dragon (again, very difficult) the wizard touches the ground (which does not get a save) and shapes 20 cubic feet of stone around one of the dragon's legs.

Player: "Ha! It's trapped!"

GM: "The dragon shatters the trap with a shrug of its shoulders and laughs at you."

Dragon: "Is that the best you have, mighty sorcerer? Is that all you have for Kilthrakis?"

Player: (in full melee range and now visible) *gulp*


***

Why this ruling? Because 3rd level spells weren't meant to tie down CR 14 creatures. The idea is silly. Without even enough rock to fill a third of a minivan? You've got to be kidding me.

***

The point of this post isn't just to point out the weaknesses in the stoneshape plan of attack. It is to serve as a guideline for when players get creative with spells. I think its great when they do that, and I'm happy to give pretty generous rulings when they do (like with the stalactite ruling.) Ultimately though, I keep the spells level appropriate. When figuring maximum damage I look at other spells of that level. When figuring things like trapping a dragon in stone, I look at what other spells that level are capable of doing. Remember, you're the GM. you want to be fair, but fair swings both ways. 'Fair' certainly doesn't mean giving your players their way, every time.

If you keep your spells level appropriate, you can be a little more secure in the knowledge that your encounters will be the challenging, fun experiences you worked to create in the first place.

[Blackfox42]

Would like to start off by saying that your rules on adjucating spell effects are the best way possible, IMO. But for the sake of argument (And I do love playing Devil's Advocate), here is this.

The True problem with spells like Stone Shape come when you have players who follow RAW (Rules as Written) very strictly. Lets break it down.

From the SRD, Falling objects deal 1d6 damage for a 200 lb object, so long as it falls more than 10 feet. So a 200 lb object falling 20 feet deals 1d6 damage. Pretty simple.

For every extra increment it falls, it deals an additional d6. So a 200 lb object falling, say, 70 feet, deals an extra 5d6, for 6d6 damage/ 200 lb on a 70 ft fall.

Combine that with stone Shape, which lets us Shape a 20 cubic foot block of solid stone out of the ceiling. A quick google search netted me the following statistic. 1 Cubic foot of solid stone weighs roughly (rounded for easy math) 150 lbs. So 20 Cubic feet of stone weighs roughly 3000 lbs. Thats 15x as much as our 200 lb object, or 90d6 damage on a 70 ft drop, for a 3rd level spell..... I think your dragon is a bit more than annoyed now.

Now, while the rules for falling objects don't specify, most people claim that you cant deal more than 20d6 damage from falling damage on an object, What with Terminal Velocity and what not. However, with Stone shape, there is nothing stopping you from saying that you Shape the stone into 5 equally sized chunks of stone that each deal 18d6 of the total.

Again, I am not an advocate of this method, simply stating WHY it is considered broken by RAW.

As an Addendum, for training purposes, what this means to you as a GM: Know how to tell your players NO. You will, most likely, run into people that think this should work as written. Know that, as the GM, you can and should tell them no to crazy things like this.

[cailano]

That is exactly, exactly right. GMs need to be able to say no.

Thanks for pointing out where that exploit was, btw.

I'd definitely still stick with the damage limit. If the player needs a rationalization, I say the rock rains down at weird angles, or that the shapes don't form well when created while falling and crumble on the way down. Or that the dragon is alerted by the casting of the spell and starts to move out of the way.

You hit it on the head, Blackfox. A little GMing backbone is all that is required.

[archmagi1]

Or you can likewise nitpick the RAW and say that plural rocks /= singular "any shape."

[Blackfox42]

While True Archmagi, we could equally nitpick on how the only rules for capping damage is in the taking Damage from falling section (20d6 due to Terminal Velocity), while the rules for having heavy things fall ON you, has no such limitation built into it, thereby making our 90d6 'single object' legal RAW.

Regardless, the point of this is to demonstrate that arguments such as this can circle around and around on themselves when you have two people who know the rules very well on different sides of the argument. D&D 3.5 has alot of very badly written rules that can be exploited, and it takes a healthy dose of common sense and a bit of GM backbone to tell your players no to the more silly/crazy ones.

Rules arguments such as this can slow your game down exponentially, especially in a live setting. It is best to establish earlly on that if such rules arguments come up, that as the GM you will allow your players a short time to put forth their arguments and then you will make as fair a ruling as possible, and then the matter is to be dropped until after the session, so that gameplay can continue. If, after the session, your players still are not satisfied with your ruling, they can attempt to show you the rules and convince you in a time frame that doesn't interrupt the game, and then you can decide if you want to revert to RAW, or if you want to stick with your ruling for future uses of such things. Stoping Arguments such as this early at the game table are the difference between getting through one adventure a night, or spending an entire 5 hour session on one encounter. Nip it in the bud, you'll be glad you did.

[cailano]

Agreed. Also, this sort of thing is easier if you establish control of your game early on, before rulings like this can really crop up. It's not all that outside the box, RPGs have always depended on the game master for adjudication. If your players want to talk RAW then point to the one where it says the GM has final authority on interpreting rules.

In a PbP setting, I would also advise moving any extended rules debated to your OOC forum. Make your ruling, move on IC, but let them complain all they want in OOC. If they end up having such a strong case that they change your mind, write the change down somewhere and tell them you'll implement it from that time forward.

[cailano]

Building a Better Dragon



“Quickly, the dragon came at him, encouraged
As Beowulf fell back; its breath flared,
And he suffered, wrapped around in swirling
Flames -- a king, before, but now
A beaten warrior."

~ Beowulf

Sometimes a vanilla dragon just isn't enough. After all that backstory and work you put into your dragon - after truly making it a character in your story - you might find that you want to really make it unique from a statistical perspective. Well fear not, the Pathfinder bestiary has you covered with monster templates. Here are some ideas for good ones.

The Advanced Dragon

Applying the advanced monster template makes for a bigger, meaner dragon. Perhaps your dragon is already seasoned against another adventuring party and has effectively "leveled up." Perhaps it has been battling another dragon over territory (talk about a good story hook) or maybe its just a naturally large beast. For whatever reason, your dragon is just a bit tougher than usual.

Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD. CR or +1.

The Fiendish Dragon

Your dragon is a true creature of evil, and carries the blood of demons in his veins (or maybe a devil.) This is a great template if your story calls for a truly depraved dragon, something that would be a nightmare for those dwelling in the shadow of its lair. It may also be a good template for a dragon encountered near sites like Golarion's World Wound, or in another plane of existence.

Quick Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR 10 / good; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite good 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against good foes; smite persists until target is dead or the fiendish creature rests). CR +1

Adding Class Levels

All dragons are gifted with magic, but some are more gifted that others. By adding levels of sorcerer to your dragon, you can create a more versatile monster with an arsenal of spells that can really keep your players on their heels. It's a rare group that walks into an encounter with a red dragon prepared for spells like ice storm.

Another possibility is a dragon that serves a dark power, perhaps taking levels in cleric. Just imagine if you would an ancient dragon casting heal on itself just as the PCs finally managed to drop it below 100 hit points.

Other ideas might be a green or blue dragon who was also a druid, or perhaps a dragon who spent time as a shape shifted human warrior, gaining levels in fighter.

Any of these ideas can make an already dangerous creature even more so, and give even jaded players an encounter to remember.

This post wraps up my series on dragons. What are your thoughts? What would you do to make an unforgettable dragon encounter? What did I leave out? Would you like to see a series like this on another monster type?

[EDIT: A kind user drew my attention to the fact that I should give credit for the above information. I didn't invent these methods, I pulled them from OGL material available on the Pathfinder PRD, which I recommend and link to elsewhere on this thread. Since I'd been pulling information from this source (and crediting it appropriately) throughout my series on dragons, I didn't think to do it again here, but that is in fact where I got these ideas. I do actually mention that these templates come from the Pathfinder Bestiary up there on the second sentence, but credit where credit is due, read the PRD for yet more great information on monster templates, which are a great tool for a GMing toolkit. You can find the PRD HERE)