Lords of Creation Open Source

[Alexander Tau]

O.K. maybe i didn't phrase that correctly

*nods* I understand what you mean now. I have always taken an active part in the online games I have created. And I think any good GM is going to play reasonably fair else they will not be GMing for long. Sadly though there is always somebody willing to make the accusation if the group is big enough. I have never won playing this way, or even been a dominant Player.

So wanting to play too, that I do understand.



A.T
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[cbolttoak]

Updates for CTDraft v0.21

I got some more powers added, and am going through the ones I've already done and classifying them as "Land Powers", "Icon Powers", and "Populace Powers", to try and split them into an easy reference system.

I came up with an example of combat in my system before coming up with the baseline rules for anything for it, since you all are working on that. You may be able to use this example to help in combat design:

Fire God John (Attacker):
Mundane PP: 3
Extraordinary PP: 2
Supernatural PP: 5
Cosmic PP: None

Water Goddess Jill (Defender):
Mundane PP: 8
Extraordinary PP: 0
Supernatural PP: 0
Cosmic PP: 1

Combat Turn 1:
Fire God John attacks. M3, E2, S5, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M8, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Mundane to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack.

Combat Turn 2:
Fire God John attacks. M2, E2, S5, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M7, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Mundane to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack.

Combat Turn 3:
Fire God John attacks. M1, E2, S5, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M6, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Mundane to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack.

Combat Turn 4:
Fire God John attacks. M0, E2, S5, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M5, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Extraordinary to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack.

Combat Turn 5:
Fire God John attacks. M0, E1, S5, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M4, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Extraordinary to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack.

Combat Turn 6:
Fire God John attacks. M0, E0, S5, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M3, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Supernatural to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack.

Combat Turn 7:
Fire God John attacks. M0, E0, S4, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M2, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Supernatural to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack.

Combat Turn 8:
Fire God John attacks. M0, E0, S3, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M1, E0, S0, C1
John loses 1 Supernatural to Cosmic. Jill loses 1 Mundane to Supernatural.
John presses attack, doubles Supernatural.

Combat Turn 9:
Fire God John attacks. M0, E0, S2*, C0
Water Goddess Jill defends: M0, E0, S0, C1
John loses 2 Supernatural to Cosmic. Jill loses Cosmic to Double Supernatural.
Both sides at 0 PP. MAD Draw.

With the example in mind, lower tiers can only take out higher tiers if you use x2, x4, or x8, depending on how far up the tiers are. However, you lose them in the process of doubling, while the other side takes only 1 hit. Also, attackers and defender choses their own losses, so in the example, if John doubled Supernatural in turn 8, he would have lost two of them and Jill would only lose the Mundane, and then John would have to retreat because he only had 1 SPP.

[TrueBlood]

O_o Looks too strange for me to understand it atm, maybe tomorrow when my brain isn't all mushy. Mmm... bananas...

Er...

[TheTallestDwarf]

Sorry to post this, but SLOW THE CRAP DOWN. HONESTLY YOU ARE LOSING A LOT OF PEOPLE IN ALL THE READING. Even I who reads, talks, and writes fast am having issues just keeping up. Okay, input time.

1. The reason I mentioned it being an issue of few actual players is simple: "How do you know what worked", what looks good on paper rarely ever works in real life (Communism, socialism, threesomes Etc.)
2. I love MESC, but it needs a little...title fixing. Cain God of the Extraordinary sounds a tad bland . And perhaps throw a limit in it somewhere, so like you can only have 3 (An arcane civ may not have mundane or Extraordinary, but is very religious. Having no basic workers hurts a bit and their pop is not as huge as others.)
3. Combat later, rule tweaky now.
4. If myth follows a simple system of "hold it, this may be broken, shall we vote?" then there is no issue of him being gm/pc. Just no "I AM GM KNEEL BEFORE ME" please.
5. Let demi-gods play out as they do in the Dnd system, they are actual gods, though not as strong, and may eventually rise to higher tiers of (Can't believe i have to say it) "God-Dom" (Demi, less, intermediate, greater, Omniscient.)

Also, just tell me when we start, and start COMPRESSING THESE DAMN RULES. Simplify simplify simplify.

[cbolttoak]

2. I love MESC, but it needs a little...title fixing. Cain God of the Extraordinary sounds a tad bland . And perhaps throw a limit in it somewhere, so like you can only have 3 (An arcane civ may not have mundane or Extraordinary, but is very religious. Having no basic workers hurts a bit and their pop is not as huge as others.)

The levels themselves are we use as players to determine gameplay mechanics. (You don't call them "Level 8 fighters" in roleplay, you call them "experienced warriors"). A civilization's Mundane level points reflect population, farm output, stuff like that. Extraordinary level points reflect scientific knowledge and application mostly (which I'm sure your previous populace would be getting plenty of), but also industry and morale (a land famous for grand entertainment and bards would be high in extraordinary points too). Supernatural involves raw magical talent, applications in alchemy and runology, and the construction of animated golems for armed forces, stuff like that. Cosmic is the stuff angels and demons get to wreak havoc with.

So, every civilization will have a chance to use all four to build their theme. Maybe a civilization that uses lightning rails and manufacturers household magic items has a lot of points in Extraordinary and Supernatural, but also covers a wide area, and uses Mundane points to fill the ranks of a growing nation. It may also have a city under the guard of a platoon of summoned angels, and so they have a point in Cosmic right there.

And with each one, they cost more to work on. Mundane is cheap and quick, Extraordinary mildly more costly, Supernatural very costly, and Cosmic requires massive investments just to get the "cheap stuff". So, if you find yourself under assault and low on resources, filling your base with a quick militia and stockpiling your foods (mundane points) may be a good tactic.

[bert]

CBOLT I'd be happier with a bit of a random factor in the combat personally, it all looks a bit too cut and dried and predictable - once a god has worked out how to get an edge over another, they steamroller them. And IMO the GM should be able to award bonuses for good roleplaying - a tedious rules nerd who says my 4 mundane pts trump your 1 extraordinary ner ner de ner ner gets less of a combat bonus than the player who tells us an epic of how his solid spear phalanxes marched fearlessly into the maw of the monstrous fire-breathing ogre horde and poked 'em severely with the pointy ends... or whatever.

Was working on a system of landscaping and mapping - will dump this in favour of the MESC sytem if it is agreed that this is what we are keeping.

[coboney]

Ok MESC Looks good to me...

What about everyone else?

Also I'm noting a lot of people want Demigods of some sort, but there seems to be 2 groups on it. If you haven't put your 2 cents in on it yet you might want to.

(Main) Premise: Demigods are a way to allow other players to play after the game starts. Demigods help run one of a God's portfolios (Think of a top assistant.)

Group 1: Demigods are for part time players and hence post every few days and have relaxed constraints.

Group 2: Demigods are a starting level of deity once the game starts and can eventually upgrade to greater powers. It is possible for a Demigod to also be a part time player.

[Alexander Tau]

Well since I am Group #2 I would suggest not worrying about my variation right now. If the game comes together and works well then perhaps my idea will become workable.

Although I like most of what Cbolt has come up with I think the combat you need to concern yourself with does not involve Gods. I'd suggest you think about simple mechanics for mass combat. War in other words.

Dieties do not fight each other directly they do so via their Pawns. Fight another God and you could die, Immortals are very touchy about that possibility. So what they do is gather an army and attack with that.

So I am a God and I have a nice Planet going. Another God thinks I am doing too well, how does he slow me down?

You need both subtle things and major ones. Subtle being say you spend a Point and inhibit some part of the development of your enemies people. Or you spend a couple of points and cause an Earthquake that demolished a bunch of villages, again slowing them down.

That sort of thing would be the meat of the conflict between Dieties. And here comes the tricky part. When they do this it will be visible in the Game Forum so you enemy will know you did it even though they are not supposed to IC wise.


A.T
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[cbolttoak]

Updated my post again for some of the game concept work. I am getting to a character limit though in that post, so I may have to start a work thread in the game forum soon.

CBOLT I'd be happier with a bit of a random factor in the combat personally, it all looks a bit too cut and dried and predictable - once a god has worked out how to get an edge over another, they steamroller them. And IMO the GM should be able to award bonuses for good roleplaying - a tedious rules nerd who says my 4 mundane pts trump your 1 extraordinary ner ner de ner ner gets less of a combat bonus than the player who tells us an epic of how his solid spear phalanxes marched fearlessly into the maw of the monstrous fire-breathing ogre horde and poked 'em severely with the pointy ends... or whatever.

The example I show here is for the actual combat numbers, but in the cycle's resolution thread, there is only a roleplay of the battle. Most likely, however, due to the nature of battles, it may be best to decide through PMs how the "story" of the battle will go between the two gods, knowing the result. The reason I have not bothered working on combat is because posting the roleplay for it is the most difficult, because it requires people to post their dramatic defeat, which many people do not like doing.

The Game Master himself, as Prime Deity, should not chose favorites or bonuses to roleplaying, because then we will lose players who feel outcasted by their writing ability. At this time, I'm designing the rules to be friendly to all players and methods of play.

Although I like most of what Cbolt has come up with I think the combat you need to concern yourself with does not involve Gods. I'd suggest you think about simple mechanics for mass combat. War in other words.

Dieties do not fight each other directly they do so via their Pawns. Fight another God and you could die, Immortals are very touchy about that possibility. So what they do is gather an army and attack with that.

So I am a God and I have a nice Planet going. Another God thinks I am doing too well, how does he slow me down?

You need both subtle things and major ones. Subtle being say you spend a Point and inhibit some part of the development of your enemies people. Or you spend a couple of points and cause an Earthquake that demolished a bunch of villages, again slowing them down.

That sort of thing would be the meat of the conflict between Dieties. And here comes the tricky part. When they do this it will be visible in the Game Forum so you enemy will know you did it even though they are not supposed to IC wise.


A.T
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With the example I gave, it was warfare between two Populaces, but each Populace was under the control of a player, which is why that was noted (Rather than the Fire God being an army of orcs with catapaults and shamans guiding fire elementals, and the Water God's temple with it's hundreds of villagers and the Planar Nagas that guarded the temple).

As far as more subtle tactics, that's where the Divine Powers come in, like Bless and Curse. All the deities will know what deity is responsible for what power in the rules I'm creating, maybe with a concept for "Shrouding" your power uses to be implemented in the future.

[Alexander Tau]

Went back and I realize I did miss some things, sorry about that. Mostly I was thinking about the back and forth example I read. Seemed more like individuals I guess.

Looking more carefully I do not have any major objections. I agree that the RP side of a Battle is what really brings it to life. The question of how much has to be detailed is going to come up a lot along the way.



A.T
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[Northlander]

I read about the "playtest" with some curiousity and one of the things that would have bothered me as a player were that some people seemed to have a bit of an "overgod" complex where they wanted to be responsible for primordial aspects of the world even before the game started. Now there might have been some OOC discussion to agree who creates which basic "building blocks" but I didn't see any.

It becomes troublesome when there are multiple gods with similar portfolios. Especially if they start claiming titles and races even before the game is actually running. Should a self titled "lord of time" throw a tantrum when some other god actually creates the concept of "time"? Shouldn't that god then earn the portfolio of "time" regardless of the other god claimed when player applied to the game? Should a "god of elves" throw a tantrum if some other player uses their DPs to create elves in game before they have a chance?

It was further complicated by the fact that portfolios of gods were very widespread without some general aspects usually seen in "creation" gods. Instead of having more primordial gods running the creation, you had very specific concepts that usually appear more in "2nd generation" gods i.e. concept like dreams, thought, war etc. There's always danger that no one claims the portfolio of death, or water, or nature. Should those elements not exist then?

I don't think it's a good idea to ask players to claim their titles and portfolios before they have actually earned them in game. At the same time you probably wish to have gods that actually cover all primordial aspects. I can think only a few solutions to this:

Solution A

The "original gods of creation" actually start as blank slates and the game has a list of "primordial elements" that first gods compete to claim by expending their DP. After they have done this they can start specializing - and earn their portfolios. This probably needs initiative system to decide who gets to start creating first. The world itself is either formless or just shapeless hunk of rock floating in Astral Plane or something. Players could claim domains and portfolios like "time", "death", "earth" and be responsible for creating those elements to the world.

I also think these basic primordial blocks should have concepts that fall under them and by combining those concepts with concepts from other gods you actually open paths for new gods to exist (basically invest to a demigod). So for example a demigod of crafts and commerce probably requires union from multiple primordial gods if he is going to be presenting multiple crafts ranging from alchemy to metalworking to weaving.

Solution B

Another solution is that the game has/had primordial gods that are basically NPC (GM) forces that are/were responsible for creation of the world. The new gods are actually second generation deities that emerged and are now claiming portfolios of their own - possibly overthrowing these primordial forces, or maybe the creation of world and concepts might have consumed these earlier forces or stripped them of their sentience.

Regardless, this allows players some preplanning and to claim concepts without worrying about all primordial aspects since the world itself exists already - and can exist without them maintaining it. Basically these new gods take existing things, change them and claim them for their own.


Both above mentioned solutions have the added benefit that the setting has a cosmology that everyone can agree with so there's no conflict between people who wish the world to be a glass sphere hanging from a christmas tree while others wish to have actual universe with galaxies, suns and planets. I noticed that for example one of the new threads started talking about galaxies and stuff. Did everyone agree that the cosmology mimics our universe or did one player do that decision for everyone else?

Regardless of choice made, there has to be a framework so the game doesn't fall into chaos where "open roleplaying" usually leads. People are often way too eager to put words into other people's mouth, or have desire for things to run their way, or to be centerpieces of all attention, or to always "win" to a point where it eventually ends up alienating other players. I've yet to see any exceptions as it takes only one player to ruin the fun for others.

[Northlander]

Clarification: When I talk about primordial elements, and concepts/portoflios tied to them, for gods to pick I'm thinking stuff like below. It may also be hard to determine how many primordial elements you actually wish to have and if concepts like "inspiration" or "stability" should be connected to some of the "material" elements or if there should be a primordial element such as "thought" (or perhaps soul) that they are part of.

Primordial Element: Earth
Primordial task: Forged the mountains, shaped the lands
Concepts/Portfolios: All earth related concepts such as caverns and caves, earthquakes, mountains, lava, forges, metalworking, minerals, mining, blacksmiths, matter, underground dwelling creatures, soil etc.

Earth is probably the primordial element that heavily influences later gods of commerce, trading, arts, creation etc. Indeed it seems logical that earth gods earn these as portfolios.
______________________

Primordial Element: Water
Primordial task: Created Oceans, rivers and pools
Concepts/Portfolios: All water related concepts such as oceans, lakes, puddles, rain, ice, seafaring, depths, water creatures etc.

Water leads probably to lesser gods of rivers, seafaring and navigation etc.
______________________

Primordial Element: Time
Primordial task: Oversees change
Concepts/Protfolios: change, eternity, life, death, decay, action, inaction, progress etc.

Time is probably the primordial element that leads to life and death gods as without change there's no life or death. It probably influences gods of knowledge and crafts as well as with change becomes progress.
______________________

Naturally what primordial elements exist are up to GMs and I think all primordial gods have room to evolve and emphasize aspects of their portfolios. For example primordial time god could emphasize aspects of life and death and become known as the god of death.

Similarly each god has power to create life so an earth god that creates also trees might emphasize aspect of forests.

Nonprimordial gods that combine elements like rain (water), earthquakes (earth), winds (air) might have more than one patron/parent and earn their own places in pantheon - in this case as a Storm god. They might even claim significant achievements as their own - such as creation of trees or glaciers and what not if other gods haven't yet created those.

[cbolttoak]

The things you say here, Northlander, is part of my experinment into "Divine Purpose" that I touch on here and there, an actual mechanical benefit for the Domains and Portfolios and the like, the official "claim to fame".

However, those rules are far from completion. Until then, it's cosmic chaos that hopefully balances itself out, or falls forever til Underverse come. :-D

[Northlander]

The things you say here, Northlander, is part of my experinment into "Divine Purpose" that I touch on here and there, an actual mechanical benefit for the Domains and Portfolios and the like, the official "claim to fame".

However, those rules are far from completion. Until then, it's cosmic chaos that hopefully balances itself out, or falls forever til Underverse come. :-D

It will be interesting to see how the rules will shape up. I've a few questions and comments though:

About the maps. I noticed you are planning to use cubic maps eventually but wouldn't hexes work better for this style of gameplay? I mean it would support many existing worldmaps better? When someone shapes a map will that be represented by a token or what? Similarly will population and creatures and what not be tokens?

Also a few things confuse me about the rules: Create ecosystem powers require lifeless regions. However the problem comes with shaping existing ecosystem to support extraordinary populace. It seems like you can only create extraordinary populace from mundance populace. This also means you would need to shape the mundance ecosystem where they lived to extraordinary one which is not possible since there's already populace in that region.

Also do "create extraordinary icon", "create supernatural being" and "create divine icon" actually create beings that can survive anywhere or do they require extraordinary, supernatural and cosmic ecosystems to spawn them?

Also what is the difference between extraordinary, supernatural and divine icons power wise? They all seem to create beings with 1 IP. Similarly what are the benefits in creating supernatural or extraordinary populace over mundane? What about cosmic?

Me thinks one potential thing for god to earn DP from might be their own astral realm. If they have one they could start gaining extra DPs from their populace as dead souls migrate to the afterlife they have crafted for them. This would give reason to create "cosmic" regions.

Also when it comes to battling other gods and their followers what exactly is attacking what? Is it populace vs populace or icon vs populace or icon vs icon? How do icons interact with populace? Should terrain influence battles? So for example if you have supernatural region "buffer" between mundane attacker should there be penalties/losses for the mundane moving through that region?

How much intervention can gods have outside of their icons when it comes to battles? I.e. let's assume terrain has some effects and a god wishes for their mundane troops to have safe passage to enemy lands: they use dp to shape unoccupied supernatural land to mundane (how much this would cost anyways?), then they spend dp to send their troops to attack (is this populace or icons?). The other deity sees approaching attack but can't shape the land back to supernatural since it's now occupied. Instead of that they decide to target the enemy troops with a curse that does... what exactly? Reduces their attack rating? Reduces their populace? It would help to know what attacks.

Finally I hope you guys are planning to keep this simple. There's already plenty of stuff that is confusing to me.

[Alexander Tau]

Good stuff Northlander.

For those people not up on their basic Mythology this Wiki might help. The Greek Gods are some the better known ones and this page has a more complete picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_gods


A.T
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