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Meh. Clones.

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Fought K'tune's avatar. Undead versions of ourselves from an alternate time line. Trapped K'tune in the millennium puzzle and then mind crushed him by first smashing the puzzle, then putting it back together and using it's wish. Nothing too special.

On a related note is it just me, or does the party-clone-enemy idea usually fall kinda flat in games?

I mean part of facing an enemy is not knowing exactly what they can do, something that's hard to accomplish if it's supposed to be yourself that you're battling. But on the other end if the clone is given different abilities to change it up it kind of feels like lying and the player (at least I would) feels cheated and betrayed. Not to mention if the clone is changed TOO much you're no longer fighting yourself and that was kind of the point of the gimmick in the first place wasn't it?

Maybe the key is to walk a middleground and only have the clone use the same moves as the original only STRONGER?

I dunno...maybe I just haven't been with a GM that pulls it off right but the whole "face your clone" thing just seems like a terribly disappointing premise. What do you guys think?

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  1. adamx20's Avatar
    It works good in anime
  2. Ao's Avatar
    Well, it depends on how the 'cloned' party is created. Is the party an exact duplicate? Do they share the same thoughts and memories? Are they instead more of a mirror image? The polar opposite?

    I prefer the party parody approach myself. Think Mario vs Wario. You take each member of the party and create the opposing party as a parody of that character.

    Also, there are two ways to introduce the 'clone' party. The first involves the clones being met early on in the campaign. They become a reoccurring villain and the main party isn't supposed to kill them off at all.

    The other way is to introduce them later on in the game. This would make them a greater challenge I think. They would have a lot more options to choose from in combat and this would help to prevent the main party from predicting actions so easily.

    Oh yeah, one thing I forgot to include is something like a Mirror of Opposition. These are simple. They are fighting their polar opposite.

    There are a lot of ways to make the 'face your clone' scenario work out. It just takes a lot of skill on the DMs part to make it enjoyable.
  3. BlacktotheFuture's Avatar
    You know, that DOES make a pretty good point. These clones in particular weren't supposed to be important to the story, just the pre-fight serving as a metaphorical overture to the fight with K'tune. Making them a separate set of journeying people allows for more acceptable deviations in the clones attacks etc.

    I personally found the mirror of opposition thing a bit lame too, but that may or may not be because it turned a D&d campaign into an evil D&d campaign and I really didn't appreciate that. (Maybe I'll blog about that next or something)
  4. Rodgin Kemph's Avatar
    I've heard dissapointment in the clone idea from others. Last batch was an evil mirror that spawned them.

    I'd have to say that using them as a one shot enemy is where it falls flat. While the concept in movies and Anime works well because they can't hit each other, most tabletops works against that as it rarely makes for you to not be able to kick your own ass. So instead of a stalemate, you run for the "who gets the lucky shot" approach to fighting your equal.

    I may have to try it as a long running evil counterpart. Plane of Shadows seems like a good catch for that in a D&D world.
  5. Aerthos's Avatar
    I think that it could be possible to have a one-shot clone fight if you could somehow keep the players from knowing exactly what their weaknesses are--which short of not letting them actually look at their character sheets you can't really do. The crux of the matter is that in movies and almost any other medium where a hero(es) fights his/her/their clone(s), the protagonists do not usually know that they have a horrible Will save, or a great grapple check, for example. By the nature of a tabletop RPG, players know their characters backwards and forwards, so they know what their weakness are--and usually the weaknesses of their fellow party members as well. This makes the clone fight difficult to pull off because that is the kind of metagame knowledge that is almost impossible to separate.

    The only way I have found to combat this problem is to separate the party so each party member has to fight their clone by themselves--which adds an element of excitement because they cannot rely on party members for buffs, healing, etc--but oftentime this degrades to whoever happened to roll the highest initiative or get in a (un)lucky roll.

    Personally I have given up on experimenting further with a clone fight, but if you can manage to make it work I applaud you and insist that you share the secret!
  6. Lass's Avatar
    You just got me nervous with your clone story arch bashing!!! One of the big plot hooks in my Star Wars SAGA game involves the Jedi PC being a clone with that was combined with the midi-cholorians of Mace Windu AND that there is a second "brother" clone who is a reaccuring baddy. Thus Im setting up for a gimpse into what a life with the Sith might be like. Its all yet to be revealed and I hope I can pull it off effectively. Luckily for me the players are dedicated RPers and love to sink their improv/RP teeth into stuff like this.

    In this case the clone "brother" is going to be a much different character. The two were seperated upon creation and have lived very different lives - one going Jedi, the other Sith. So hopefully that will prevent the problems you mention in fighting your mirror image. I hope to make the characters similar enough to have the clone temp the PC with a "how great our lives can be as Sith brothers speech" but still have enough of a solid footing that the PC will reject it.

    But at this point its mostly still on the drawing board being fleshed out more and more each week with a slow gradual reveal coming.
  7. Lass's Avatar
    W.ell poo... I double posted and cant seem to figure out how to erase the second posting
    Updated 04-16-2010 at 08:17 PM by Lass
  8. BlacktotheFuture's Avatar
    Well then this is a perfect way of pre-fixing things that might not be well recieved with your own clone premise Lass. By the way, what happened to that Fires of the Force game we were in? WHERE'D IT GO?!
  9. Lass's Avatar
    I dunno... Virgil just vanished... saddies.